Saturday, November 15, 2008

Freedom and Equality: Two conflicting Ideologies

If been busy lately and I've tried to write a couple posts but I just keep shooting blanks. But I feel as if I need to get this off my chest. I have no idea if there is some out on this or not, but while I was taking a shower I just realized how Freedom and Equality in their truest forms can't exist with one another. When I came to this realization, I thought, no way, maybe I'm missing something, because those two words are always used together. But the more I rationalize, Freedom and Equality are two conflicting ideologies.

First lets look at Equality, in its truest form. Equality in its truest form holds that every person should be treated as equals, no one has the right to be better then another, which completely takes away human freedom to compete (when there's competition there's always a winner), which is one of the most basic human freedoms their is. Now lets look at Freedom, in its truest and purest form. Freedom in its purest form is a persons right to free will, which is to say that a person may do as he pleases, which in society can very dangerous as that can lead people to cheat, steal, and kill, which all take away from a persons equality.

The more I think about it though, the more it make sense. Lets take a look at economic ideology now. You have Socialism (in its purest form) which is heavily influenced by Karl Marx and stress equality, and then you have Capitalism (in its purest form) which is heavily influenced by Von Hayek and Friedman and stresses Freedom. It doesn't take a Nobel Prize winning Economist to figure out how both these theories have gone very. When we take Equality to an extreme (or close to it), we get the Soviet Union, and when we take Freedom to an extreme (or close to it), we get our current economic crisis.

Now this is not to say that Freedom and Equality cannot exist together, that is not what I'm saying. They cannot exist in their purest forms together, but they can exist as a form of compromise between one another. Think of it like this: when you click on the settings button on the computer there one side that says slow and another that says fast (think of it as Freedom and Equality on opposite sides) and you have to move the little dial in between them so you can pick which speed is best for you, well its the same thing with Freedom and Equality, you just adjust how much of Freedom you want to sacrifice for Equality or vice-versa. I really hope I'm not ripping off someone Else's theory here.





This reminds me of Baudrillard quote I read from Utopia Achieved, where he describes the difference between American and Europe as, in America everyone starts Equals but make their way to different paths, while in Europe everyone starts on different path and make their way towards equality. Off topic, but it just came to my head.

13 comments:

pineapple said...

But why is socialism seen as being so bad? I mean i know it is but obviously people cant go around spending money like crazy. How come capitalism isn't seen as being totally corrupt and evil like socialism. Am i making sense or am I sounding like deranged 14 year old kid?

JDR said...

aprettyhatemachine said...

But why is socialism seen as being so bad? I mean i know it is but obviously people cant go around spending money like crazy. How come capitalism isn't seen as being totally corrupt and evil like socialism. Am i making sense or am I sounding like deranged 14 year old kid?


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Actually, I don't socialism (in a moderate form) as that bad. The problem with socialism is that it can never really work on a large scale basis because the system in itself is too bureaucratic, which eventually leads to corruption which is basically a waste of capital and economic inefficiency. The reason socialism is seen as something real bad can be traced back to the McCarthy and his Un-American trials which is a total joke, but like most conservatives if your view is against theirs, then its Un-American. The reason capitalism will never look bad is because capitalism always benefits those who have capital (basically the rich) and the people who own the media, own a lot of capital, therefore they have a vested interest in capitalism. This of course is without mentioning the stigma related to be anti-capitalist in this country. Look no further then that John McCain rally where his supporter stated that Polosi and Obama where socialists because they wanted to put (only) regulations on this very free market capitalistic economy. There is a lot of ignorance in America (actually around the world). We are always taught at school how to think, which is a problem, because a lot of people, as I have learned in my life, don't know how to think for themselves.

Now was I in no way saying I support socialism or am an anti-capitalist. I truly believe in a free market economy, but I believe there needs to be a balance between socialism and capitalism. Somewhere in the middle (and at no time in our lifetimes have we really truly seen it close to the middle). I'm going to stop here before I keep ranting.

? said...

True Freedom (anarchy) or true equality (Marxism) neither is attainable. A solution lies in between (Democracy) and (socialism) a mild version as I'm sure you would agree.

JDR said...

classical one said...

True Freedom (anarchy) or true equality (Marxism) neither is attainable. A solution lies in between (Democracy) and (socialism) a mild version as I'm sure you would agree.

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Ahh, That's funny, I completely forgot about Anarchy, Which in my readings today (Individual VS Community) was a main topic. But I completely agree with you, neither is really attainable because I feel Human need order (Which doesn't exist in Anarchy) and competition (Which doesn't exist in Marxism) to survive. If you look at Monkeys, especially Gorillas, You will see how they live in packs (Troops) with a leader, but their is also competition among the males in troop. Its funny, how their behaviors reflect a simplified version of ours.

Unknown said...

I just realized how Freedom and Equality in their truest forms can't exist with one another.

Very true, it kills me they are used interchangeably. Freedom is something that doesn't guarantee equality. To achieve any type of equality, you typically have to suppress the freedoms of others who impose or impede equality.

I do think the current economic situation we have seen freedom go way the hell over the top to the detriment of the American people. The sheer mention of reigning in "corporate freedom" brings up the idea of socialism. I agree with you that socialism in it's purest form does not work, but there is nothing wrong with sharing the wealth if it ensures that it is for the overall good of the people.

JDR said...

Very true, it kills me they are used interchangeably. Freedom is something that doesn't guarantee equality. To achieve any type of equality, you typically have to suppress the freedoms of others who impose or impede equality.

I do think the current economic situation we have seen freedom go way the hell over the top to the detriment of the American people. The sheer mention of reigning in "corporate freedom" brings up the idea of socialism. I agree with you that socialism in it's purest form does not work, but there is nothing wrong with sharing the wealth if it ensures that it is for the overall good of the people.

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I completely agree. The problem with socialism is that its too inefficient because of all the bureaucracy which leads too corruption and waste. Socialism can actually work on a small scale, but never in something as big as say Russia or the USSR. But socialism is still alive and well in the US, people just don't understand it. Public Schools is a form of socialism, and pretty sure everyone except some very radical conservatives would agree, that it benefits the country. But it's funny how this is never brought up as a socialist program.

Anonymous said...

I agree in the premise that freedom and equality cannot co exist. If you believe in God then the fact is that God did not create everyone equal. If you believe in evolution then you have to understand that some people are just not evolving as fast
(I will let you decide who those people are)

The problem is that we don't live with freedom anymore. We are all slaves at this point. As I explained over at Siditty's corporations are creatures of the state. Hale vs Henkel 201 U.S. 43 No corporation ever pays taxes EVER. It is simply an arm in which the state taxes you. Corporations only facilitate the transaction. Yea you get some pretty cool stuff in the process but when the government bails out the motor industry its not because they are doing it for America, its because they stand to loose billions in revenue. We are not even close to being a republic anymore. America is a communist nation. That why everyone is like "those greedy capitalist caused all this" Its only because they are behaving like communists.

If the slave understands he is a slave then he can do something about it. If he believes he is free but is still a slave then everyone is happy.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

We are not even close to being a republic anymore. America is a communist nation. That why everyone is like "those greedy capitalist caused all this" Its only because they are behaving like communists.

No they aren't behaving like communists, but greedy people incapable of realizing the greater good. When did the US stop becoming a republic? It was way before the Reagan years in my opinion. Money and social status trumps equality and freedom for the lower classes every single time. Since the inception of this country, "freedom" has been limited, and equality wasn't discussed until a couple of hundred years later.

It was the greedy capitalists, there is no need to revise what happened. We cut back significantly on corporate laws, created loopholes for larger companies to destroy and eliminate all or most competition, and now we have become so reliant on these mammoth companies, we are realizing if they fail, the country will fail. If there is a big brother, it isn't the government it is these fortune 500 companies. They have the lobbyists to fight for their cause, the American people have no lobbyists to protect their best interest.

Also remember Alan Greenspan was a follower of Ayn Rand, that woman believed in laissez fair capitalism, and looking at Greenspan's record, he did too, and he is partly to blame for the hot mess we are in now.

JDR said...

"No corporation ever pays taxes EVER. It is simply an arm in which the state taxes you. Corporations only facilitate the transaction. Yea you get some pretty cool stuff in the process"

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That's not entirely true. It depends on the elasticity of a product that you are buying. If a product is very elastic or close to perfectly elastic, then the suppliers end up paying for most of the taxes. But those are much rarer cases, I will admit. But that statement is not totally accurate, elasticity plays a role in taxes, regardless. Since Gas is very inelastic, then taxes on these products will be payed by consumers. But if you take cars for example, if demand for the car is elastic rather then inelastic, then the company will either have to absorb some of the taxes while leaving the sale of the car still profitable, as well as the consumer. If they don't absorb some of the taxes, then they can see a very large decrease in demand, which would cease to make the car profitable at its sales level. So see, It actually depends on elasticity, but your right, most of the time, we are actually paying the taxes.

JDR said...

"America is a communist nation. That why everyone is like "those greedy capitalist caused all this" Its only because they are behaving like communists."

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Explain how we are a communist country. We've only made loans so far and we still haven't nationalized a bank yet. And have a state run Auto Industry at this point wouldn't be so bad. The problem I have when people blame the Unions for Detroit is that they don't look at the executives making millions. If I were in charge of the crisis, I wouldn't give the auto Industry a loan. Instead I would take some of those billions and by equity in all the companies, nationalize them for a period of 3 years (with a clause to extend it for 2 extra if the market has turned around) restructure management and cut executive pay across the board as they will be state employees. They Would be responsible for designing cars for the future, with high fuel efficiency. Then I would offer the union an irrefutable offer of a handsome stock bonus for all employees for a temporary minor pay reduction and a suspension of pay raises for the 3 year period. This would have the effect of cutting labor cost and raising efficiency among workers by giving incentives with the stock bonus, basically guaranteeing them a nice payoff if the company succeeds or a bust if it fails. They would basically have no choice in excepting this offer as the Industries would fail and they would their jobs regardless if they refuse this offer. This also takes away a lot of the risks off most of the tax payers as the risk will be burdened upon the autoworkers who will need to be productive in order to gain that bonus. After the 3 year (If the economy turns around), Then I would resell the Equity held in the company, and more likely then not make a profit for the taxpayers. In my opinion, I doubt any politician would be crazy to commit political suicide by nationalizing an Industry, but I'm sure this could be turned around with some large government intervention and nationalization.

Suesue said...

what does JDR stand for??? Is that a stupid question?...

JDR said...

no, it's not stupid. Those are my initials.